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  1. #11
    Forum Ace fancy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfist View Post
    Heck, if I have to, I will bribe the leadership to do it. I really want shields to be useful beyond one hit. Besides, isn't Fancy able to do this aside from Mini? (Assuming Jim is correct.)
    Once I know what else Roker removes from the freak plugin to make it "ours", I'll remove the shield breaking part of the code as well. I'll post an update once it's done. Till then, assume that we're working on it. We'll get to it eventually.

  2. #12
    Forum Babus TornTomato's Avatar

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    The idea of Demoman shields staying is reminiscent of Slag Gaming's Demoman shields. In Slag Gaming, one had to hit Hale 3-4 times with a melee in order to block one single hit without the opportunity to get another block. The idea was that Demomen would risk their life to get their movement speed and health buff while still retaining their shield defenses. Slag Gaming's plugin rewarded brave Demomen with 1 single block for hitting Hale 3-4 times. It was really neat but foreign to me.

    With the addition of these suggested shield stats, Xyro would finally be countered since a Chargin' Targe would soak a lot of damage. Chargin' Targe Demomen could eat a CBS arrow headshot for someone, a miraculous save. Splendid Screen + Claidheamh Mor would be a valid strategy instead of a one-time use shield bash. Overall, it'd change the metagame and allow new opportunities for fresh loadouts!

  3. #13
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    I think that if we could somehow make the shield resistances stay, even when the shield is gone, that'd be great. of course, we'd have to nerf the charge 'n targe then, because it currently has 100% explosive and fire resistance which is ridiculous. Besides that, I'm all-for some kind of rework to demoman's shields, as long as he doesn't become TOO tanky.
    I don't want this to be the new soldier knight, where there's like 12 of them in every game and the hale gets crapped on.
    I'm really trying not to be obnoxious

    it's not working

  4. #14
    Forum Fanatic JimOfRicefields's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nope Le Engineer View Post
    I think that if we could somehow make the shield resistances stay, even when the shield is gone, that'd be great. of course, we'd have to nerf the charge 'n targe then, because it currently has 100% explosive and fire resistance which is ridiculous. Besides that, I'm all-for some kind of rework to demoman's shields, as long as he doesn't become TOO tanky.
    I don't want this to be the new soldier knight, where there's like 12 of them in every game and the hale gets crapped on.
    A good idea, but if a shield gets removed, it counts like the Demoman doesn't have it at all, so unfortunately it's either shield or no shield.
    That plan isn't bad if we could make it that way, though.

  5. #15
    Post Maestro Dragonfist's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nope Le Engineer View Post
    I think that if we could somehow make the shield resistances stay, even when the shield is gone, that'd be great. of course, we'd have to nerf the charge 'n targe then, because it currently has 100% explosive and fire resistance which is ridiculous. Besides that, I'm all-for some kind of rework to demoman's shields, as long as he doesn't become TOO tanky.
    I don't want this to be the new soldier knight, where there's like 12 of them in every game and the hale gets crapped on.
    As shown in my proposed stats for the Charge n' Targe, the player will be very tanky, but takes a massive hit to their movement speed. My goal for the Targe was to allow the player to survive a lot of punishment and even high power rages, such as the Bionic Commando's missile or the Easter Bunny's (crit) eggs, but punishing them for over extending as they cannot escape effectively. I am also considering putting a reduction on overheal or healing from healers.

    As for the other shields, the provide either massive charge damage or high mobility at the price of minimal defense. If you haven't looked at the stats I proposed, I recommend you do so.


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  6. #16
    Post Maestro Dragonfist's Avatar

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    Just going to bump this, keeping it on the radar.


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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfist View Post

    The Chargin' Targe: This is the ultimate tank shield. You can't move near as fast as other demo men can, but you can take a lot more punishment. Pairs well with the Eyelander to regain lost speed and become even more tanky. Be careful to not over-extend, as your lowered speed might be the death of you.
    +25% explosive resistance on wearer
    +25% fire resistance on wearer
    -50% damage from ranged
    -40% damage from melee
    +65% crit resistance on wearer
    -45% move speed

    The Splendid Screen: Your charges are short and powerful, but this shield isn't good for much else.
    +Can deal charge impact damage at any range
    +2000% increase in charge impact damage
    +150% increase in turning control while charging
    +250% increase in charge recharge rate
    -15% damage from melee
    -20% damage from ranged
    -0.5 seconds decrease in charge time

    The Tide Turner: This shield pairs well with the Iron Bomber. The increased charge time allows for improved hit and run attacks. The player must, however, melee the hale to refill their charge meter, or wait longer for it to recharge.
    -17% damage from melee
    -20% damage from ranged
    +Full turning control while charging
    +2 second increase in charge duration
    +Melee hits refill 35% of your charge meter

    -25% charge recharge rate
    I know these are just ideas and the chargin targe makes the demo incredibly slow, but my lord, 40% melee resistance and 65% crit resistance? That means a base 195 hale does 117 and a crit does 253. I fully agree with Fancy that a merc should not be able to ever survive more than 2 hits (and for me, that's just without any outside healing), and this would mean you would need 2 crits or 5 hits as a hale to kill a demo, with 4 hits only doing 468. I would much prefer extra utility over this amount of tankiness. With 475 health, I would say the demo would get (if at all, because this could very well be ridiculous) 20% resistance at maximum. Also, the critical resistance does work against melee, I tried it out on Freak against a base 195 hale. With the Blutsauger, Kritskrieg and vita saw, the medic has ~400 health. A crit brought me down to 10 health. A crit that normally does 585 with half of the bonus damage removed does that 390, so I can confirm that the critical resistance does indeed work on melee. Also, yes, we would definitely need to remove overheal at the least, with most likely -50% health from wearers, because a quick fix with a tanky loadout can get out of hand very quickly.

    Splendid screen? Possibly, if we remove the resistances. It is a shield, but it isn't meant to resist melee. Maybe keep the ranged, though.

    Targe? Again, remove the suggested melee resistance and the ranged, because the targe is supposed to trade off resistance for mobility.

    Also, you say the demoman should have these melee resistances so a base 175 health demo can survive a hit. However, does that really need to be the case? similar to the soldier situation, demomen already have a lot of mobility and catching one only to have him survive is a very annoying experience. Hit a demo with the Claidheamh Mor? Too bad, he survives and charges away. I don't want to frustrate hales any more than they already are. If demomen want to be more tanky, then they need to give up their primary in exchange for the boots.
    Last edited by SirLolleth; 04-08-2017 at 01:48 PM.

  8. #18
    Post Maestro Dragonfist's Avatar

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    So, the way that we have the shields set up is that they offer a bit of defense, blocking a hit no matter what. The reason why I had such extreme stats on the Targe is that it is meant to be a rock. You don't have to fight them. With such low mobility, you can easily walk around them. Or if, you are CBS, Radigan, the Easter Bunny, or one of the many other ranged bosses we have, you can easily kill him because he can't escape.

    Additionally, something that I noticed about your ideas (not trying to be passive aggressive here) is that you want the Targe to be a general use shield with no special perks. My goal for these shields is that each one can perform well in any situation, but they excel at one specific job, such as the Turner with the Iron Bomber, or the Screen with the sneaky charge.

    As for the overheal, I say let it stay. If the medic is loyal enough to build up that overheal at 50% healing (which I added in), it's something of a gamble. That healing could be used for some other class that would be a much safer investment. Overhealing at 36 hp/sec would equate to ~14 seconds of healing. That's a long time.

    Finally, I just cannot compromise on the already small melee resistances the Turner and Screen have. If they aren't at full health, then they will die if you hit them. Even falling off a small ledge and taking some fall damage could be deadly. There is a small window of 9 hp that means the difference between life and death, as a standard 195 hit leaves them with 10 health.If you think about it, this is worse for them in some ways. When the old shield would have blocked that and they would escape, they die. (the ranged, well, maybe. We'll see.)

    All in all, I want to avoid making major changes to these proposals until we can get these changes shipped and start getting test data back back. If we get significant results suggesting a change in the win/loss ratio or these changes being too powerful, then yes, I will gladly adjust them.
    Last edited by Dragonfist; 04-08-2017 at 03:16 PM.


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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfist View Post
    So, the way that we have the shields set up is that they offer a bit of defense, blocking a hit no matter what. The reason why I had such extreme stats on the Targe is that it is meant to be a rock. You don't have to fight them. With such low mobility, you can easily walk around them. Or if, you are CBS, Radigan, the Easter Bunny, or one of the many other ranged bosses we have, you can easily kill him because he can't escape.

    Additionally, something that I noticed about your ideas (not trying to be passive aggressive here) is that you want the Targe to be a general use shield with no special perks. My goal for these shields is that each one can perform well in any situation, but they excel at one specific job, such as the Turner with the Iron Bomber, or the Screen with the sneaky charge.

    As for the overheal, I say let it stay. If the medic is loyal enough to build up that overheal at 50% healing (which I added in), it's something of a gamble. That healing could be used for some other class that would be a much safer investment. Overhealing at 36 hp/sec would equate to ~14 seconds of healing. That's a long time.

    Finally, I just cannot compromise on the already small melee resistances the Turner and Screen have. If they aren't at full health, then they will die if you hit them. Even falling off a small ledge and taking some fall damage could be deadly. There is a small window of 9 hp that means the difference between life and death, as a standard 195 hit leaves them with 10 health.If you think about it, this is worse for them in some ways. When the old shield would have blocked that and they would escape, they die. (the ranged, well, maybe. We'll see.)

    All in all, I want to avoid making major changes to these proposals until we can get these changes shipped and start getting test data back back. If we get significant results suggesting a change in the win/loss ratio or these changes being too powerful, then yes, I will gladly adjust them.
    I see what you're saying with the melee resistances for the Screen and Turner. But if a Demo wants to survive a melee hit, he's gonna have to either have a medic on him or use the booties. You can't have everything. If you want to use the Loch-n-Load or Iron Bomber, then you should be exposing yourself to 1-hit melee kills. Seriously, the Iron Bomber is the greatest mobility weapon ever. I mean, every time I use it, I just bounce around the hale and jump away if he gets too close. Plus, the explosions shake me just a little bit, and jerk the hale around as well, making it very hard to hit me. I've done 10k over the course of a game without a medic or any crits, just by jumping in, getting 3-5 hits, and jumping back out. It's easy, it's effective, and the hale practically can't stop me without his rage or lucky hits. So if the shields go this way and stop blocking hits, then they don't need melee resistance. I usually manage to keep my shield nearly the entire game.

    So, basically what I'm saying is that you can either choose mobility or tankiness (real word?), not both. I still love the idea of this shield overhaul and would totally support it. Demo needs more than just "here, grab this OP axe and go get em'!"
    I'm really trying not to be obnoxious

    it's not working

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