Posts 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Oh boy, here we go.

    So, first things first, I'm not sure whether big balance threads are allowed on the forum, if they aren't, I can just copy-paste most of this into the suggestions thread. (only reasons I didn't post this there is because I didn't want to fill up an entire page with just 1 post on that thread, and I want feedback for these changes I suggest.)

    Secondly, I'll be using a sort of "writer's commentary" for all the changes I'm going to suggest, just as a sort of; "why do I think that this change is good?" or whatever. I'll be dubbing these as Nep-Notes just for convenience sake.

    Now let's start from the top.


    (Minigun has been changed since I made this, I'll be doing 'testing' on how the new one plays, changes to it seem to be based on my suggestions)

    Add these stats in addition to its current stats
    +Faster spin up time (same as current Huo-Long)
    +25% Damage Bonus
    Changes to current weapon stats
    Reduce Healing from Medics penalty from -60% to -40% (perhaps add a max overheal penalty [Not -100% penalty, please] if 'new' version is considered too strong)

    Nep-Note: While I like the idea of the current minigun, I feel it falls just short in the important areas for viable weapons in vsh. Namely mobility (whether direct, IE movement speed, or indirect, IE allowing a class to react to danger quicker), and damage. The faster spin up time would allow minigun heavies to properly react to an incoming boss, and the boosted damage would allow for heavies to keep up with the other high-damage classes (namely his other two power class teammates, Soldier and Demo)

    Huo-Long Heater
    Keep current version

    Nep-Note: Very simple, I think that the current huo-long works just fine for what it's meant to do, and I feel that it should be the basis for how other heavy primaries are balanced. Also, from now on, I won't be listing any of Heavy's weapons that either I don't feel like need changes, or I'm not sure how to change. I just wanted to make sure that Huo-Long stays untouched.

    Add these stats in addition to its current stats
    +900% Extra Melee Damage taken when active
    Changes to current weapon stats
    +Boost the weapon's fire rate
    +Slightly increase its current max ammo
    -Possibly reduce the weapon's current damage bonus if new version is considered too strong

    Nep-Note: Much like the Minigun, I like the concept of the Tomislav, namely that it does give Heavy some desperately needed mobility. However, I find that currently, Tomislav Heavies present 2 problems: Below average damage output, and Stalling ability. What I mean by that second point, is that Tomislav Heavies are generally able to possibly tank one hit so long as it's not a crit, which can make tomislav heavies annoying to deal with. These changes aim to fix both problems, boosting the weapon's damage output to again, compete with other classes, while making the Heavy an agile glass cannon, as any melee strike would mean death, no matter what, of course, this would only be applied when the Heavy would have this speed, meaning he won't get one-shot while trying to say, eat a sandvich or something. Also I didn't increase other forms of damage taken because I think getting shot currently by a boss's ranged attack is fair game.

    Brass Beast
    Add these stats in addition to its current stats
    +Can now deflect projectiles similarly to the level 2 (Max) version of the "Destroy Projectiles" MvM Upgrade

    Nep-Note: I'm very torn about the current Brass Beast, on one hand, it suffers from the whole VSH Heavy shtick of "Useless without a Medic, Overpowered with a Medic", but I'm also not entirely sure how to fix that without completely reworking the Brass Beast (which I don't want to do). I figured at least a small buff to the current version would at least mean you're not a complete sitting duck against, say, Combat Soldier, as Easter Bunny's eggs are too random to reliably destroy, and CBS's arrows are too fast to easily deflect. i guess Heavy having one "I need a pocket medic pls bro" primary weapon isn't too bad. Considering the weapon's potential damage output currently.

    Complete rework, all of the weapon's current stats are removed and replaced with the following stats
    +400% Extra Bullets fired per shot
    +20% Damage Bonus
    +No Movement Speed penalty while deployed/revved
    -35% Less Accurate
    -66% Slower Firing Speed

    Nep-Note: Current Natacha has always been in a weird spot, with it either being too good with knockback in play, or complete trash when no knockback is dealt. So, I say that a complete rework of the weapon is the safest bet, after thinking of potential roles and ideas not currently done with any other Heavy weapon, I decided that perhaps making the Natascha into a sort of "Automatic Shotgun that needs to spinup" was an interesting idea, if such a rework were to happen, its stats could then just be adjusted from there.


    Add these stats to current stats
    +15% Faster movement speed on wearer

    Nep-Note: Sandvich has always felt kind of outclassed by the Dalokahs in terms of general play, purely from its speed bonus, so while not as high as its chocolate bar counterpart, it would still provide just a little boost.

    Second Banana
    +Change -100% Health from Healers on wearer to -100% overheal on wearer

    Nep-Note: Very small change, the banana would work almost the same as it does now, except now medics can actually give you health. More of a quality of life thing, but whatever.


    Warrior's Spirit
    +Change the current passive damage vulnerability to -20% Slower Movement Speed on wearer (passive)

    Nep-Note: Having an item meant for tanking make you take more damage is so backwards that I can't comprehend it. Changing this vulnerability to something more logical, like slower movement speed enforces a "Solid Wall"-esque playstyle. I'm actually not sure whether the vulnerability stat currently exists, as the weapon stat page seems to be outdated, but if it does exist, which I do recall it existing currently, please change it. (I was able to check in-game about the damage vulnerability, and as far as I know, it still exists [and with a 20% Overheal Penalty, might I add.] although some "testing" was being done by Para {afaik, it was only on the brass beast}, so I'm not sure what's the deal with the WS right now.)

    Well, that's it, for now, there are a few weapons that I feel like should be changed, but I'm not sure how (those weapons being the Panic Attack and the Holiday Punch). Whether these changes actually happen is all up to the server balancers, but I can at least now say that I've put in my input for Heavy's current state.
    Last edited by Nep-Nep; 08-30-2018 at 11:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Heavy Balance Post Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

    Basically, same format as before, but with some ideas that I didn't have when I made the original post.

    Let's go (again)


    Second Banana
    Possible rework to make it more interesting (?)
    All old stats would be removed and replaced with the following:
    +50% Crit Damage Resistance on wearer
    +50% Bullet Damage Resistance on wearer
    +50% Explosive Damage Resistance on wearer
    +50% Fire Damage Resistance on wearer
    +150 Max Health
    +15 HP regenerated per second on wearer
    -100% Max Primary Ammo on wearer
    -20% Movespeed Penalty
    -50% Healing from Medic Sources
    -75% Recharge Rate
    -40% Slower Weapon Swap Speed
    (i) Eating the Banana would heal 300 hp over the several bites (similar to how the sandvich is in normal tf2), and would apply the regular battalion's backup effect (-35% damage received, Crit Immunity, -50% Sentry Damage) during the taunt
    Nep-Note: I don't really have many problems with the current banana (hence why I only suggested a small change in my original post), but if it were to do something more interesting, making it turn Heavy into a pure wall (with only melee as a damage option) could be interesting, plus, smarter hales would know to goomba the Heavy should he have this equipped (as goombas would still insta-kill). Basically, if the Steak makes Heavy into a high-agilty melee combatant, the Banana would make him a living wall, with fists.


    Add the following stats to the current version
    (i) While this weapon is active:
    +400% Extra Melee Damage Taken
    +50% Jump Height
    -100% Healing from Medic Sources
    This Weapon Holsters 25% faster
    Nep-Note: much like the banana, I have no problems with current GRU, but with the banana changes I suggested, I wouldn't want Heavies stalling by using it with the Huo-Long and the current GRU, plus, Heavies already stall with Huo-Long + Steak + GRU anyways, so these changes would combat that as well. Also maybe the no healing while active could be useful as an uber building tool? Could be interesting imo. And the jump height is to make it the mobility utility melee, with some risks.

    Well, that was a lot shorter than last time, but that's mostly because I either covered a weapon earlier, or I don't think it needs changes (Family Business, Eviction Notice, KGB, are all examples of that), or I still don't know what to change about it (Holiday Punch is the prime contender for this, what with stock Fists already being a height-based jump item, although the GRU changes could even invalidate the current fists, I'm not sure. Maybe make the Holiday Punch useful for shotgun Heavies? It's an idea, I suppose)

  3. #3
    Definitely been giving this thread a good look-over these past couple days, I will say that posting in a new thread definitely won't increase the likelihood of implementation of stats, however doing detailed reasoning on why ya'll feel like it should be added/changed/removed does increase the chance that I'll consider it.

    Now for a little back-feed-back

    Minigun I recently took some inspiration from your post here and increased it's damage and took out some of its more, clashing stats. Stock weapons are important to keep on the middle road of skill-reward, while still being worth using in the high-paced Freak gamemode.

    Brass Beast I've decided to do another re-work on it. I'm finding that being completely immobile simply isn't a viable option in Freak. If you're not under something then the hale can just goomba you, and if damage resistance isn't high enough then the hale can just hit you twice and you're out. That being said, there was a strong medic-heavy symbiosis from the stats of the weapon, and I've decided to try and keep that theme going. For more detailed look on what I've changed make sure to look at the not-updated-as-much-as-I-should-be-doing Changelog.

    The Natascha idea would work nice in theory, unfortunately because of a little thing called Valve, the stat: -66% Slower Firing Speed cannot be used on miniguns. I tried it on the Brass Beast around overhaul 17 and people quickly found out that if you hold the Rev-Up button and spam click, you can completely by-pass any fire rate penalty it might have.

    Warrior's Spirit not gonna lie this one was a my-bad. In order to get Kill-streaks and Skins working on weapons I essentially made it so they would copy over their default stats. For most weapons I had this taken care of with the stats being adjusted to be nullified or overwritten, but I missed a few (This text file is only 4800 lines after all), including the Warrior's Spirits 30% damage vulnerability on wearer and for that, I apologize, and its been fixed.

    Second Banana whooboy that's a lot of numbers you're tossin on there. I'm going to be trying out some stats on it to see what works and what doesn't, but for some fun number games... Base Heavy is 300hp, the banana would increase that to 450hp. 50% resistance to everything [except melee, I know] is effectively the same as doubling the hp [so now we're at an effective 900hp] and then with the Battalions backup effect that'd be at about 2185~3600 depending on how valve does their math.

    The True and Best stats of a rabbit.

  4. #4
    Regular BlastStrikerZ's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaDLell View Post

    Second Banana whooboy that's a lot of numbers you're tossin on there. I'm going to be trying out some stats on it to see what works and what doesn't, but for some fun number games... Base Heavy is 300hp, the banana would increase that to 450hp. 50% resistance to everything [except melee, I know] is effectively the same as doubling the hp [so now we're at an effective 900hp] and then with the Battalions backup effect that'd be at about 2185~3600 depending on how valve does their math.
    What makes this even worse is if you remove the 30% Damage vulnerability on the WSpirit and then give the Heavy the Minigun AND the WSpirit, he'll be nigh unstoppable without Goombas. Imagine that on a map with a covered point...

  5. #5
    Y'know 50% crit resistance is like kritzkrieg but 25% left and that much hp would make heavy unkillable by crits. Just saying it's intresting more weapons are being suggested with the crit resistance since not many weapons uses it

  6. #6
    My Banana rework was more of just a dumb idea I thought of, I wasn't expecting it to go anywhere. (hence why I did a much more simple banana change in the first post)

    Also I have some ideas for the holiday punch, will probably post them soon (possibly with other weapons?)

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